106. Breaking Free From Narcissism: Understanding Traits, Setting Boundaries, and Finding Freedom W/Tony Overbay

 Hello? Hello, my amazing listeners. Thank you for joining me. And once again, Tony Overbay for the rest of our conversation. If you did not listen to last week's episode, go back, listen to that one. This is a continuum. I just want to remind each of you to register for the free divorce support live session with me. Where you can come ask questions. Feel supported by other people feel like you're not the only one. I love sharing a thought or a concept Right at the beginning of that live session.

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So thank you. Okay. Part two with Tony and other eight conversation. And at the end of this episode, check out the journal prompts that I'm going to offer you to do this week. To further explore what we are talking about today. All right, here we go.

Well, Tony, thank you again for coming back and doing part two, because we did leave with some, we were like heading into some really good stuff. And I know that you just like sharing pathological kindness and this concept I think is going to be really valuable for my listeners.

Mm hmm. No, you just did a deep dive. So I did. Should we tell the backstory that yeah, this is part two. I did not, I disappeared for another two years. Now it was a few weeks. And then you were so kind and reached back out and and I just, I just got back on this call and I just said, did you like the thing I emailed you?

And then we just spent five minutes with me. I have no idea who I emailed it to, but it was some really cool notes about the first time that we talked, but then what it did was that it. I, yeah, I saw where we left off and and so then this thing we're going to talk about today. So thank you, Amy. Then I went and I created a whole episode on what we're going to talk about.

So we'll break the news here then and then I'll, I'll launch mine at some point and then people will think that I, I don't know, I copied it off of this one. No, never. If anybody's copying, it's me off of you. You do some amazing work and I've been following you so I. would love to hear, and again, with my women who are divorced and a lot of them are still showing up this way, presenting this way, trying to keep the peace, especially when kids are involved.

So I, I'm just going to let you go because what do you feel first and foremost would be really helpful for my listeners to understand about this? So what this led me to is I know we were talking about, I identify this person as the pathologically kind and they find themselves in the relationship with the emotionally immature.

And, and this is a funny thing. And I actually did not go back and verify this, but I thought that the first place I got the pathological kindness piece was from Ross Rosenberg in his book, Human Magnet Syndrome. But I remember cause he came on my podcast. That was a funny one too, where I had talked about his concept of pathological loneliness.

Cause he talks about that where the person that , has what he calls self love deficit disorder, which would be the, your, the people you're working with. And then when they get out of that relationship , they have this pathological loneliness feeling. And then the way that that is best. And then the other way to ease is by turning back to their narcissistic lover, like that's their drug of choice.

And so then he has a theory of moving on to the thing called self love abundance, which is, it's amazing. So that whole concept's neat. I mentioned it. I get an email from Ross. Here's where my rejection sensitivity. Is on high alert. So I'm assuming that it's a cease and desist and I need to remove it from my podcast.

And he said, he's saying, Hey, let's be friends and let's talk. So I was like, Oh, okay. That's like, that's cool. So that's why , when you and I were texting about, about coming back on that's. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm immediately thinking I'm getting sued when somebody, I get one that's from him. And it turns out he's a nice person.

So then we started, right. So we started talking about in the book, human magnet syndrome, the human magnet syndrome is. What I thought that Ross had said was pathological kind person with the narcissist and they form a human magnet, but I went back and looked and he doesn't exactly call it the pathological kindness.

So now I'm co opting that. And I'm going to take that one on for myself, but right. But, but the reason I think that it's so significant is kindness is a good thing, but then the concept of a pathology is, is. It's not necessarily looked at as a positive thing. And so this is what it got me writing after we were trading message say, so I'm gonna read a little bit, some notes because because the, this part of the pet, the term pathology comes from the Greek word pathos, meaning suffering or disease and logos meaning the study of.

So in medical context, pathology refers to the study of diseases and how they affect the body. But in psychology and behavioral sciences, pathologies used to describe patterns of behavior, thoughts, or emotions that are maladaptive, harmful, or outside the norm. Cause a distressed Mix pathology, pathological kindness Is a trait that is persistent.

Extreme or exaggerated beyond what would be Typical and often harmful or detrimental to the individual or others. And then resistant to change even when it causes problems. So, thank you. So, and this is the stuff I feel bad telling the pathologically kind person that you are too kind, and that kindness can actually be a detriment because I never want somebody to stop being kind because that's a gift.

And that's it. Right. And that's a value. I mean, you can continually be kind. There's no end to kindness. But here are some, some points that I jotted down about. Here's why I think it's, it's important to recognize pathological kindness because the, the pathology of it indicates that kindness is taken to an unhealthy extreme.

So since, I mean, so yeah, kindness is a positive trait, but when it becomes pathological, it's not necessarily balanced. then I think the The concept of pathological kindness leads to self neglect because people that are pathologically kind are gonna put others' needs ahead of theirs. And now, right?

Yep, yep. And I see the way you're not, and it's like, oh, now we're in the, now we're in familiar territory. And then people that are pathologically kind typically lack boundaries because they don't want someone to be upset with them. They don't want somebody to be uncomfortable. And it goes back to like, they'll, they'll take the, the brunt and the underlying issue, I think it's like, it's from, it's a lot of times it's from deep seated issues around things like self esteem which, I mean, that's the part that just breaks my heart because you have somebody that in essence they are, they're being so kind because that is the way that they have, they feel like they will be loved.

So there's like a fear of abandonment underneath there as well. I was going to say, there's gotta be, yeah, layers, layers of abandonment alone. Not not approved of accepted. Yes. So I will, I will kind my way into getting this person to care and I really care about the person. I want to help them. And I think that's the part where there's some genuineness there.

It is right. That's a great word for it. And it's like such a kind, it's such a nice thing. I mean, who doesn't want to be with somebody that is kind, but then that pathology piece, I just think. resonates where it's to an unhealthy level. Yeah. And this is what you go. Oh no, you go, you go. Oh no, I'm not.

I'm being kind and you are. Well, I was just thinking, doesn't, wouldn't you think this also applies to maybe a pathological Empathy. Someone that, okay, because that's so funny, Amy. I've got, I've got like, are we on the same page? Yeah. Cause I jotted down like a dozen different things. I was like, okay, well then what's, what are other things that could be pathological?

And I wrote that the number two one is empathy. So the P the positive traits. Then the pathological traits, the positive traits, understanding, sharing the feelings of others, the extreme or the pathological empathy is emotional exhaustion, taking on other's problems as your own difficulty, separating your emotions from others.

So I started going down this path of, I wrote down like a pathological ambition, positive drive to achieve goals and improve, but the pathological piece, workaholic, neglecting personal relationships and health, never feeling satisfied with their own achievements. When you go down this path, I mean, there's pathological frugality pathological optimism pathological humility.

Like I'm super humble. I'm one of the best. I'm the best at being humble. That's a joke, right? I got it. Okay. Please insert that in post, but I mean, but really on that one, though, Positive version of humility, being modest about one's accomplishments and importance. But the extreme version of that is self deprecation and ability to accept compliments, undervaluing one's worth and contributions.

And I think I see that a lot. And I think that's a close cousin to the pathologically kind is somebody that is pathologically humble. Was , they play small and these are, what I'm gathering from all of this and what I want our listeners to see is that you have these beautiful, genuine characters.

They are often what's the word I want to use? Maybe. Okay. I'm going to use for lack of a better word, tweaked. Okay. They go in a direction to serve our own purposes, like not being alone, being light, wanting to feel lovable. And then the person that is emotionally immature, narcissistic can take advantage of that.

Yes. Absolutely. That's where I think our last conversation was where it, we're seeing the dynamics there play out pretty intensely. And that's where abuse also comes in. Absolutely. And I think that you nailed it with the, I mean, because that, that part is is. There's the, if we, I think we were maybe talking a little bit about there, no bad parts or, there's a, we're, we're all doing neat.

Everything is a need seeking behavior. So that one does seem really obvious from a positive standpoint, of that part of you wants desperately to show somebody you care because. Because I mean, I would imagine that there wasn't as much of that modeled in your own childhood. And so you were performative, or you just weren't acknowledged.

So it's like, okay, this must be a way to get acknowledged. , I can try to earn my way. Right. Right. And then, and I think it's important to note then, like what we're talking about, that, any trait can be excessive. I think that pendulum swing happens where somebody gets out of a relationship I'm imagining you get the same vibe where if somebody says, Okay, how do I stop doing that?

How do I stop being kind? It's, oh, no, how do you like, how do you adjust that pendulum swing to, Yeah. Yeah. I get back into the middle there and the missing piece there. I have seen, tell me what you think, Tony, but the missing piece in there to balance that out is the connection to self. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

So if I think because there is so much actually disconnection when we are in, like we're talking about pathological state of kindness, empathy, whatever that is, we are essentially losing ourself because it's like. We're talking about trying to get either something external right to feel that sense of self And so I love where you're going with this because I, I'm sure my listeners are like, yeah, I don't want to repeat the cycle.

I don't want to find another narcissist. I don't want to get hurt again, but do I have to completely, excuse my French, be a bitch then now and not to be kind. And I do see, I mean, I experienced that after my divorce. Well, what was that like? Yeah. I mean, did you, what'd you do? It was don't especially to men.

It was don't even look at me. Like, I don't want, like, don't, don't even look my way. If you look my way, there's going to be a problem. Like it was a swing on the other side. I didn't want to, Give the time of day to any man. And I see that pattern repeat. It can go the other way too. And we won't get into that, but that, that swing, because I was a pathological empathizer, kind do everything over loyal over, over, over, over.

Yeah. I went way to the other side for sure. So what would you say to these women to Balance that. Well, and I like this. So, so let's, we're, I think we're spitballing right here and then I'll pretend that I knew it the whole time when I put it on my podcast. But I think that it, I think that it almost has to go the pendulum swing to, to almost allow yourself to then, you know what?

Thank you. Yeah. Okay. I think, I think I'm right on that one. I am on the same page. I literally just told a client today who was worried about being way over on this side. I said, I love it. Stay there for a while. Yeah. As long as you need almost like that acceptance doesn't mean apathy. I'm going to accept the fact that I am, I am really angry and, and I, I have to accept the fact that I may never.

Okay. Actually, I do dig this stuff. So, I still remember the first person that came into my office and they, their therapist had told them and I co opted this one too. I guess I'm learning. I'm a bit of a fraud. I mean, as we're talking about this out loud but the, the person said that their therapist had said that they had to accept the fact that they may never get married again.

Okay. And so, and they said that felt super scary. And so I've actually then said on a few podcasts, when I talk about this one, you have the acceptance doesn't mean apathy. It means to take in without defense in its entirety. So if I accept the fact that I may never get married again, it does not mean back up the chocolate fountain, bring in a dozen cats or so.

It means that I now I'm not trying to show up in a way so that somebody might want to marry me. I'm showing up and I'm accepting that fact. So I am just being and doing. But it's so funny as I say that it's like, and you better not look at me, but I mean that, that part, , we get rid of that part eventually, but it's that, yeah.

So that, that's what I start telling is like, but it's so hard when somebody is feeling that pathological loneliness , and they're feeling like, okay, could I have done anything different? Or what if nobody ever, so that was a hard one to ease into. First of all, I don't know. What do you think?

Really, really hard. You're spot on there. And I have a lot. Of women. And I know listeners that will relate to what you just said there. And yet again, I think the answer, not that it's easy, but the answer is finding yourself in that. The missing piece is always ourselves. And find that in a new partner or something extra.

Even our children, I lived in that space too, where I just dove into my kids then and find they're going to be my life. And my therapist is like, no. Yeah. So whether they want to or not keep your kids. Yeah. Like we're yeah. And I see that one off because. That one was funny too, because it's so funny now that we're admitted admittedly to your listeners.

This is a couple of weeks apart. And so I worry that we said this already, but because in the world of differentiation, the more I'm learning about being differentiated is that, a kid's job is to become differentiated from a parent. And then, so I have thought about this lately, where if a parent is.

Almost seeking that connection aggressively in a sense that it's going to cause the kid to fight even more for autonomy. And so, and then if the parent is the controlling or emotionally immature parent now,, you can just see where that, that, that schism just occurs and it gets really, really deep there.

It does get even more complicated when it's in a divorce situation because . A lot of my listeners are parallel parenting. And anyways, it's already the dynamics between parents and child are strained. And so , if one parent is seeking their children for their own sense of self and worth and filling that void of loneliness, It gets very tricky to say the least.

Some enmeshment can happen as well where I know you just mentioned that the kids can rebel and go to, away, but I've also seen it happen the other way where kids then feel like they need to care. Oh yes. The parent, right? I need to care. And it's usually the, mother I need to make sure that she's okay.

And this, this, gets perpetuated with especially young men or boys. You're the man of the house now and you need to take it. So I've seen either push away or now we have an unhealthy enrichment. Boy, that's true. And then you're managing the parents emotions. And that one's one where I think it's interesting when I'm having that conversation with a couple and they are choosing to get the divorce.

then I have a big old speech about, Not making it about the kids and they will say, we're not, you know what, it's not going to do until then the immature person, the first time the kid says, man, I'm bummed that you guys are separating. Well, I didn't want to either champ, once you go ask your mom and they're like, Hey, I'm just telling the truth.

And it's like, no, that's you're being a jerk. Yeah. It's really tricky there. We can do a whole several hours just on kids, but okay. So go back with me to the, the, the, Whether it's kindness or empathy, all of these again, characteristics that, these women have that are beautiful, that are amazing. And yet, how do we help them balance that out?

Because I know all of them are just trying so hard not to repeat the pattern. Yeah, and so I think that there's a couple of things I want to acknowledge. And again, I want your opinion on this too, is that I think when you really think about the, that concept, the pathological kind person, or the highly sensitive person, or the, or the empath who finds themselves in this human magnet syndrome that I can't imagine, honestly, as, as me, how deeply they feel or care or that concern is there.

And so that I think that's part of what makes that, that magnet That is hard to break because that person they're used to putting somebody else first. I mean, that is again, we have to acknowledge that has been what they've been doing for such a long time. And then it's,, they don't want to give up on the potential of this other person or the relationship.

And then I think one of the big things is that they, I mean, well, they're used to feeling responsible for their partner's happiness. , and then another one , is you're asking, , the intense, the intensity of the emotions that they feel Is I've got eight thoughts going through my head right now.

So let me, let me put a couple of them out here. So one of them is at one point I made up this continuum of narcissism in my head when I was learning about highly sensitive people. So on one end is the highly sensitive person on this end is the most narcissist of all narcissists. And so I was, and I, my wife is hilarious.

So when I was telling her about this, I'm like, so I'm here, like, if you're, if the listeners are listening, I was trying to put myself at halfway and she moves myself a little more toward the narcissism side. And then I was saying, okay. And then the highly sensitive person is, down this continuum.

And so I was saying anybody, , you feel like the person anywhere up the continuum is a jerk, but then anywhere down the continuum, you're like, Hey, don't worry about it. Like, it's not a big deal, and so then the highly sensitive person is always going to be, down that continuum from the more emotionally immature and narcissistic person.

And so then throughout their marriage. When they have a concern and they say, I feel a certain way, the person, is able to say, it's not a big deal. Don't worry about it. And so then eventually the highly sensitive person acquiesces gives in because they know they're not going to be heard or seen, but then the narcissistic person feels like, okay, good, we're good now.

And so, and so that just continues, to further that cycle. So then I just, I, that's my long winded way to say that when the person is finally trying to have a voice, they're also used to whatever 10, 15, 20 years of, it doesn't matter what I say. And so now I'm trying to express myself. And then you've got all those things about their used to putting others first.

They believe in the potential of the relationship. They feel things more deeply. So I just think that all that is so important to acknowledge that you're asking somebody that is in their bones and their DNA and their pathology to then do this thing that is going to feel like they are.

They are ripping this person, they're giving up on them. They're ripping their heart out. They're doing all these sort of things when again, meanwhile, the narcissistic person, once they leave the room, there's they're on to the next thing. So it's that pathologically kind person that just assumes that everybody at least.

He thinks similar to the way they do. So he must be hurting too, or he must be going, really feeling this too. He's not. And I can say that. Right. Yeah. You might. Yeah. I almost just, I really want our listeners to rewind and play that again because that is so hard to wrap your head around as a highly sensitive person.

Okay. It really is hard to. Accept that other people  don't think that way. Yes. Yeah. And , when there's the drips of nice, and I'm going to, I use that word purposely not kind, but right. The nice narcissist when you get the breadcrumbing or they show up in some ways that are fantastic. It makes it all that more confusing to understand that they like what you just said that they could actually walk away and not even look.

Oh, right. Can you even imagine that? Yeah, doesn't compute. And that is where they get really stuck after separation divorce. Because their brain is still trying to put those pieces together. Like, and assuming that, that they must be hurting too. And I'm not saying that there's zero hurt. I mean, that, that everything's like on the spectrum of sorts, but, and I would imagine Amy, you've seen this as well, where the, and I'm going to go back to the gender stereotyped male, a narcissistic person, they get the, they're divorced and then the and then he gets married very, very quickly.

Our brains are so online. You're going to go in there too. That's exactly what I was going to say. Keep going. Yes. No, and that, well, that's, that's part of that where, I mean, I can't even tell you the number of people I've worked with where then all of a sudden the wife's saying, and then can you believe it?

This two, three months later, he's married. And then and then it's because, it's that I mean, holy cow, there's a term in narcissism. It's the Oh my gosh. I use it all the time. This is where I think I'm getting old. It's the, it's not the cutoff. It's not the, it's the exact true.

That's a fair point too. But it's where it's like, it's just, it's, you're just cut off and now they're on to the next thing. Period. It is absolutely shocking. This is what happened to me.

And I remember thinking and then again, as a highly sensitive person, it's, they really didn't care. They really didn't love me. I must have not meant anything. And so. Oh yeah. Yes. Notice the turn against the self. Yep. Yep. Right. So this person is out there doing off and on and living the life. and I remember assuming, well, wait a second.

If she seems normal. So what's wrong with me that I couldn't get him to stay. It must be me. and I think that plays into that pathological. Yes. Okay. Narcissistic discard. I don't know why I couldn't come up with that one. There we go. Yeah. Right. But, but yes. And then man, you're so right. And then there's the thoughts too, where then it's like, Oh my gosh.

And now he's gonna, he's probably changed , and and now he's going to go find this other person. And. So I wish I could do some sassy voice to go, honey,, he hadn't changed, or something. I don't know if that didn't come. No, but it's true. And they haven't because , and I know what you and I at least know what it takes to actually change.

Right. Never seen anybody. On the spectrum, I'm going to say, of those behaviors and that emotional maturity, it takes a hell of a lot of work. It takes years. Years. I mean, I've seen it. Yeah, I call them unicorns. Yeah, I've got a couple of them. They are. You do. You see a few. But it is It's not easy. Yeah. So, I love that you're validating this because I say this to my clients all the time, but yes, that definitely can get hung up.

Can I tell you like can I tell you one that I've never talked about? And again, I'm sitting here saying you can edit anything you want out, but , this concept of how the how a guy can never understand the depth of emotion of, the female, the feminine is I, so I work with all kinds of clients.

I worked with people that are transitioning, trans clients., and so it's like, I, I mean, I'm just there to help that person process their life the way that, you know, that, that sort of thing. So one of them had sent me this video once and it was really fascinating. And one of my clients had, and it was it was actually a guy that had been a female for about 20 years.

And he was actually. Or she was transitioning back to male and that's, I'm not trying to say anything political or whatever. The most fascinating thing about this video, it's on YouTube and I, I've sent it to a few of my clients just because they said that when they started having testosterone and getting rid of the estrogen, they said one of the biggest things that they missed was the depth of feeling and emotion.

And I just thought that was brilliant, so I mean, it was almost like right there is that, they talked about when they had first started taking hormones and blocking their testosterone, that , the feelings and emotions were so strong and I just thought that right there is really, really fascinating to think.

Oh, I have no clue what my wife feels at all and nor could I. So that's where I go back to when I'm telling her, don't worry about it or it's not a big deal that I am being a jerk. I mean, it might not be to me, but I can't imagine because that's where the only thing I can do is say, Ooh, what, how are you feeling?

What is that? Like, tell me about that. How can I help? How can I show up? Because I, and again, that right there to shows, I just, I don't even know what I don't know about the. The depth of feelings that, you must have Amy or, my wife or it is true. There's a, I don't know if hope Ray, but she has some beautiful new terminology.

And one of the things she's coined is wise femininity and it's the sensitivity, intuition, and vulnerability that a woman has. Oh, I like that. And it's the trifecta and they can get off balance and out of whack. But when we have those, that trifecta working together, it is a superpower. It really is. And but it can get out of whack when you are living in an abusive relationship and when you've gone through betrothal trauma Because now you either become hypersensitive and low vulnerability or low intuition and high vulnerability.

Oh, I like that. Either way, they get all out of whack. And so one of the things that's coming to my mind with this is we're talking about, okay, so yeah, we're going to swing way on this side after we separate or divorce. I think part of this too is becoming maybe. Re familiarizing yourself with your emotions and your wise femininity as a woman can also help maybe bring that back to balance.

I like, I like cause it's one of the things I'm a kick I'm on the last few months is that that concept of not ever letting our emotions come out that then just let them run free when you are feeling them. And it's really difficult for a guy, , for some reason pride, and all that stuff.

And we think that we're. That, real men don't cry, all that stuff. But I really like what you're saying because, the pathologically kind woman who has been managing everybody's emotions has to have been putting hers on the shelf, or burying those. So I like what you're saying. I mean, it probably part of that pendulum swing is allow them to just go and be, and they might be really big and just let them out.

It's hard to try. When you think about betrayal, trauma, abuse, divorce. The trust in self is low. Trust in others are low and yeah, it just, Can I say something about that back to this concept of acceptance? What I do think is fascinating is when I'm working with some, a couple that they're trying to make it work after betrayal.

And that's again, where if a wife will say, or a guy will say, well, when she going to start trusting me. And that's where I love saying, Oh, we're accepting the fact now that she may never trust you. I mean, that's again, it's just because now that we've accepted that now we're not trying to continually like, Oh, can I, or can't I, or it's like, Oh, you'd be crazy to trust him at this point.

And it's one of those funny things where, when I was talking with my wife at one point and I was talking about the times that I was more emotionally immature. And then and she was, I forget the context, but she was bringing that up and she had mentioned that she said, man, it'd be hard for me to trust in this particular area.

And I was like, Oh, you shouldn't like that again, that would be crazy. And I, and it was funny because I loved it. Her response was, I feel so validated, but like, but also angry. And I was like, Yeah. I mean, that's, and you can hold both of those emotions. Like that's part of this concept of whole object relations.

Like you can feel all those things, cause it isn't that all or nothing black or white, but back to that trust thing. Oh, it would be, it would be a fool's errand to say, you must trust me. Yeah. I love how you're saying that the word choice comes to mind. As I heard you say that. Because what you're doing is giving them the choice to trust again, this betrayed that.

And so, when the dynamic is, when are you going to trust me? When are you going to trust me? I'm doing all those things. Yeah. Right. And she's like, I have to trust. I have to trust. And so I love what you're saying there because it absolutely puts the word choice back into it.

Yeah, that's good. And then I think that plays to this cool concept that when I think people are really starting to discover that they're allowed to think and feel the way that they can, that then there might be a moment where they are starting to feel, man, I do feel pretty trustworthy or I'm starting to trust them.

And then later that day, it's like, I don't know, maybe not. And then, and that's actually part of the real human experience is like, check that out. Sometimes I feel that way. Sometimes I don't because that's the real way human emotions work. And that's okay. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Trying to just get people to accept the human.

Yeah. Yeah. There is so much black and white. There's so much right and wrong. There's so much of the extremes that can get it in the way. And when you have trauma and when you have complex trauma and I've lived in extreme for so long and that's the majority of my clients, right? They've been in survival, lived in such extreme unhealthy relationships.

It is so hard to find what healthy is. Yes. Wrap up with that actually, cause I, I know you and I could just go and , go, but yeah, up with that one. Yeah, it's really interesting to put it that way because I've started to try to introduce in some of the podcasts. Like, let me give, the healthy version of what this would look like, because even when I'm trying to lay out in a couple scenario, Hey, here's a, here's my four pillars and here's the way to communicate.

And I've realized at times, I just get these blank stares. They're like, okay, that sounds great. But can you just tell us which 1 of us is right? Which 1 of us is wrong. And I'm trying to say, well, okay, we're trying to, well, let's shoot a little higher than that. Let's let's look at this.

Healthy way to communicate. I have to tell you ADHD for a moment here that I have to like, I feel like I'm trying out new material , at a club right now. Cause I had a thought this weekend about something that I want to explore so much, but, I think I can fit it into this how you find it.

One finds their sense of self. So, I was, Long story, but I was listening to a podcast and maybe think of this other thing, but I was thinking about people, the podcast was talking about this concept of conversion disorder, where, when somebody is bottled up all their emotions or feelings , or, they eat their stress all the time, that then the body will eventually, it will come out and, Like back pain, or I had a client once that would have seizures and then they, they put them through a series of tests and couldn't find anything wrong.

And so conversion disorder is a really fascinating concept. So then I was thinking about that. And then some of the people that they were talking about in this podcast just eventually just started doing other things with their life and then they no longer had the symptoms. And then I was thinking about people that have somebody that I'm aware of in my extended family that has some really, really.

Chronic pain issues, but then to them, it is,, I feel like it's a lot of their identity. And so then, when you ask them how they're doing and if they accidentally say they're doing okay, and then you're like, oh, cool. Then, they're like, well, but I mean, not that good because I, it's almost like that has become, their sense of self, their identity.

And so then they're afraid that if they, if people don't identify them as always in this chronic pain, Position of pain that then they will be forgotten. And so then it got me thinking about, so here, I'll turn it around about me. I used to always say I'm the marriage therapist, and ultra marathon runner.

I haven't ran an ultra marathon in a few years because I tore my meniscus playing basketball and, it's in a weird way that it's like, if I go get surgery on it, then I won't be running much. And I'm still able to run a fair amount. But it's like always bugging me. And then I had a thing a couple of years ago that that it also causes some pain that I thought was like cancer scare. , and all of a sudden I thought, Oh, I don't even talk about these, but I'm always aware of them, but it's because I've got so many other cool things I want to do. And it just had me think, okay, so my sense of self is not going to be defined by , my aches or pains, but I have aches and pains. And so then I do find that it's almost like.

When we go back to the self, there's the false self where it's like, don't even know who I am, but I worry at times where this is where somebody almost can make, their identity. About their all of it. I am following. Yeah. Okay. I'm glad you said that because all of a sudden I felt like, man, I'm going to sound like a guy that's a jerk, for saying that, but no, this is, I see it.

I've experienced it. It is. When you are not connected to that sense of self, then even subconsciously we are connecting to something only to derive from that. And yep. Yeah, I'll tell you, I remember, not one, two, Be the divorce woman in my church congregation. I was like the only divorce, right?

So it was like, Oh, she's the divorce lady. Yeah., at some point over the years, it actually was like, no, I'm the divorce lady. And I remember, this is so vulnerable, but I remember another woman came in and she was divorced and I remember having feelings. Okay. Like how dare she take your identity?

Divorce. I mean, it's silly, but it was so good to me. It was so real to me. And I appreciate that vulnerability. Yeah. We definitely don't even know that we're doing this sometimes and yet. Again, part of healing whether it's healing from pathological kindness or, or empathy or whatever, when we are in a space and a stage of healing from divorce and separation, I just cannot stress enough how important it is to do everything you can and professional help is just, just think you need it to help you connect back to who you really are and find that true sense of self and identify.

with what you want to identify with, not what you think you should or supposed to or have. And that's real true healing comes. And when you can do that, all of you ladies who are worried about repeating or finding what a narcissist again, I hear that all the time. When you are changed your perspective, I always like point to my glasses.

Like we'll see through a new pair of glasses. Yes. And that, and that narcissistic Yeah. And I think you're so good with that because when I talk about raising your emotional baseline, I always say that like the person that you would see when your baseline is low, or that you would feel like this is somebody that, that I, don't know, would have me in essence.

Yeah. That then when you're good with yourself, then, then you are. You, I mean, that would person wouldn't even be in your, like, you're saying you're lying to site. It wouldn't be. And I'm not saying that as a, I am so much better than this person, but yeah, yeah. It's like, it's the same level of differentiation or the same level of trauma.

And so when you heal, then I do joke that when you really know who you are, then when the, and I gave this example on a podcast once, cause I had somebody that I was seeing and it wasn't about this, but they just said, here's a story. They said, here's a story. I think you'll like. And they were out to dinner and with a guy on a date.

Gosh, this is this bad thing about memory. They were doing something, I think in the sciences maybe that was it. And so then, and then the guy said, Oh man, I don't know how I feel about that. Like, I think I, that would be hard for me to accept if I was married to you or something like that.

And she just said, Well, I wasn't even asking you, I was just, I was telling you, this is what I do. And then, and she said in her mind, she just thought, cause I had said something on a podcast about a check, please moment. And she said, and I was like check please, because, and I just thought that was so good because it was like, she was so confident in who she was and what her job was.

I think he said, what do you do? And she was telling him and he's like, Ooh, I don't know how I feel about that. And right then she just knew, okay, this is silly, right? I think that's the part where it's like, when I'm good, then if I'm sharing. Myself, I'm sharing an experience, I'm sharing who I am, I'm sharing.

Or if you ask me a question, it's like, well then if they're gonna now attack my answer, yes. That's why I just wanna be like, what is this intimacy right there, ladies? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. This is cognitive intimacy when you share your thoughts, ideas, and opinions about you, and they are poo. P done, done.

Check, walk away. Check please. I love it. Well, and you said something interesting too, and do you see this happen? When you were talking about baseline. They are so used to this level of emotional baseline, which is, I'm just going to say mean. Okay. Mean is awful. If they don't do what we're talking about here, connecting themselves and start to be kind to themselves, start to have empathy for themselves, grace for themselves.

Then what I see happen is that they meet a nice guy and it is so different from mean guy. Yeah. Misinterpret it as the kind space. Oh, I like that. Yeah. Just nice. Yeah. Yeah. And so why this is so important ladies to, when we talk about if we're swinging on the side of the pendulum, a pathological kind, empathy, whatever, when you find your middle, because you find you, then you will find the kind guy.

You won't. Nice. Isn't going to be good enough. No, it won't. But when you miss this part of yourself, I see it happen all the dang time. It's Oh my gosh. He is so nice. Nice. Well, yeah, it feels so drastically different because your baseline was like in the freaking gutter. Yeah. Yeah. And so we've got to do this work for ourselves.

Be kind to yourself so that you know how you want to be treated. Like this example right, when you know how you want to be responded to about the work that you do and the life that you live or the way that you are a mother, whatever that is important to you, when you can own that and be kind to yourself around it. You're not going to find the nice guy. You're going to find the kind. I love it. I do. And it's it's funny, the thing that came to mind for myself too, by the way, that was a nice wrap up. I think we should probably just call it good there and here. I'm going to tell a lame story, but it just, I remember when I was a brand new therapist for years, when somebody would say something about, like, they would challenge, I don't know if I'm a big fan of therapy or whatever.

I felt like I had to defend the whole profession. I had to make sure that they understood why I do what I do. And now I don't care. Cause I love it. I know, I know it's good. I know I'm a good therapist. I know it helps people. So if somebody is telling me they don't think it does, okay. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Okay. Period. Yeah. Yeah. Good luck with that. Right. I just diagnosed you by the way. Yeah. Excellent. Good to hear. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I love it. I love it. I got that one. Oh my gosh. Okay. Honestly, you and I could go on forever. I love our conversations, which is why I pestered the hell out of you, Tony.

I'm glad. And now I need you to come on the virtual couch and waking up to narcissism. So I will now equally pester you. I love it. and we never talked about what a normal relationship looks like. So stay tuned. Oh my gosh, you're right. We did it. But hopefully the normal in you,? But, it is somebody that you deserve.

Somebody that is going to be honestly curious. It's somebody that you have a secure attachment with somebody that like, they are there. They're us. You both are each other. You're your home base. You can go and do and explore and come back. And somebody says, how was that? What was that like? Tell me more about that.

And how can I support you? And you're both do it. And it's like, Cause you, you're so good with yourself. You've already chosen yourself. So now it's like, I know I'm good. So I just chose you. And so let's go have some shared experiences and this will be amazing. And that, that's the part where, and when somebody is like, well, why'd you say that?

It's, that's not, it's, it's like, Oh, tell me about that. Or tell me, there, there just isn't the, why are you being you that way?, it's, that's not, it's like, tell me about you. And I just think that's,, and then. The unfortunate part is people hearing this or on my podcast, I'll say, and then all of a sudden you'll notice a little, a unicorn come out and then there's a rainbow and there's a little guy and you chase him.

He's got a pot of gold. Like it sounds that fictitious, but it's not. I mean, it's there. It does exist when you've lived in the gutter relationship, right? A gutter relationship. It does sound like a unicorn. And yeah, Yeah. I found my unicorn and it is amazing. It really is. Right. You can go, it's going on six years now and it is night and day different.

Yeah. I'm glad. Starts with you. Starts with connecting to yourself and can't get past it. Tony. Thank you so much. Amy, it's good to see you. And I want you to see this is, by the way, anybody still listening mindfulness at its finest. I just kicked over my water bottle and look how calm I am. It is pouring all over my my floor and I'm fine with that.

So I have an amazing, amazing day. Hey, I'll go find some paper towels. Okay. See you. Bye.

Never a dull moment with that guy. I true, really hope these episodes are helpful in validating, inspiring you even further on your journey towards an empowered divorce.

I want to leave you with a couple of journal prompts. I'll put these in the show notes as well, but Here's one self-reflecting question that I want you to ask yourself, maybe journal around.

Reflect on a time when your kindness may have crossed into self-sacrifice. And what were the circumstances and how did it affect your emotional wellbeing? Moving forward. How can you maintain it, your kindness while also prioritizing your own needs?

And then the next one. In what ways have you noticed your identity being overshadowed by the needs of others? Moving forward. What are three steps that you can take to reclaim and celebrate your individuality? I'll have those journal prompts. In the show notes.

Remember. You don't have to sacrifice your amazing characteristics and your unique way. That you love. Let's focus on loving yourself first. Be kind to yourself and extend the same generosity you offer others to yourself. You can create the life you want by loving the life you're in, because you can take care of anybody.