165. Gaslighting After Betrayal & Divorce with Sarah Morales

Hello. Hello, my amazing, beautiful listeners. How are you? Thank you for joining the conversation today, and I am having a conversation with one of my dear friends and special guest Sarah Morales. Sarah , is known as the gas lighting expert. I'm having her join a two-part conversation.

I did split our conversation up into two episodes.

I think keeping the episodes a little bit more digestible can be helpful. We do address a lot in our conversation this week. We're talking a lot about gaslighting behaviors in general and what you may have experienced and really, we wanna validate the experiences that you all have had in your past relationships, and potentially still experiencing in your relationship with your ex, those gaslighting behaviors.

I wanted to slow this conversation down because before we get into self gas lighting, I think it's really important we talk about the importance of recognizing what that looked like in your relationship. And so at the end, I'm going to give you a couple journal prompts, to take advantage of, to help cultivate more of that awareness. Between now and next week's episode, when we get into more of the self gas lighting, those are gonna be in the show notes. I really hope these next two episodes are helpful. I'm  📍 gonna get right into it. Here is my conversation with Sarah.

 Well, it's funny, I was going to hit record and just start ranting about this and bringing it up and I was like, well, why would I do this by myself when I have incredible access to an expert?

Yeah, you do. So I just text, text, text. And yes, I'm very, very lucky to have you in my life and have your brain be willing to to let me pick I really do appreciate you coming on, just as a reminder you did. For those who have been with me for a while, Sarah, you, you were on my podcast.

I was looking back, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's been way too long. But I did do an episode with you where you were sharing a little bit of your story. So if those of you who are new or can't remember Sarah's story, where she's coming from and wanna hear more maybe I'll link the old podcast episode we did in the show notes so you can find it quicker.

I mentioned that because I think you're storing what you've experienced, along the way, not only professionally, but your own personal experience mm-hmm. Really, really adds to the level of expertise you have in this area. Yeah. I think like, okay, not only do you, know the things, but you live the things.

So yeah, I feel like there really is a different level of appreciation that that comes when. I know my listeners can appreciate that. Like, okay, she gets it. Yeah. Like, you're not, you're not just teaching us, but you get it. And I, I just wanted to remind my listeners like, yeah, no, Sarah's the expert, but she gets it.

Yeah. And I mean, if I may even, I'd love to say when it comes to the topic of self gaslighting or gaslighting herself or whatever, I think that's really important to have that information so that. When I say something, people know it's not coming from a place of like judgementalness or I think I just made up a word or anything like that.

I know these things because I did these things. Exactly, exactly. Do you know what I mean? And so it's the whole reason why my trademark starts with the word deconstructing is because that's what I had to do myself. I had to deconstruct these things all by myself. I mean, a little bit of help here and there, but really a lot of this gaslighting stuff.

I was a pioneer. I did a lot of this stuff myself, and now I've turned it into stuff so other people don't have to do all that work by themself. Right. But that's, that's where I come from. Right. It's not from a let's blame the victims. Like, how dare you gaslight? No, it's like my stuff is called take your power back.

This is how we take our power back. Yes. Right. This is how we find our authentic self. And so that's the place that I'm coming from. And it's a really important part because if you don't know that, you might hear what I'm saying differently. You might not hear me as a survivor. As a survivor. Now thriver, right?

Like yeah. You might hear me differently. So thank you for mentioning that. 'cause I do think it's important. It is important. And I know that's why I share so many personal experiences, um mm-hmm. Hearing hard truths and self-reflecting and seeing where you might need to shift and improve. And this is all part of post-traumatic growth work.

A hundred percent takes, it takes a level of of vulnerability and humility and self empathy and compassion mm-hmm. To be able to look at these pieces and go, oh, mm-hmm this is why I might be stuck. This is why I might exactly still be, I use the analogy , of, the rope. We oftentimes pick up that rope that's still attached to our X and before we know it, it's wrapped around our throat.

We don't understand y. Mm-hmm. So every time we see these different pieces, these different ropes and can untangle them mm-hmm. Use the word, deconstruct my analogy, like untangle. Mm-hmm. Then you are truly free and imp and can step into that empowerment in that creative part of you to create the life after a lifesaving divorce.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. This, we're gonna talk about hard stuff and we're gonna mm-hmm. Pull some stuff out and right away, this is an episode to watch your body, listen to your body. Mm-hmm. Look for some dysregulation, look for some of the oh shit moments. Mm-hmm. It's, it's okay, we've been there, we get it and mm-hmm.

If you feel very stuck, what we're gonna talk about today might help you get unstuck. Yeah. I wanna talk about and start with some validating as always to validate the gaslighting behaviors, the methods, tactics and techniques. The roles that we, get into in your previous relationship.

Ladies, like betrayal comes with a level of abuse. There has to be, to have a reality collapse, there has to be a effing with your reality. There has to be, mm-hmm. Destructive behaviors and abusive behaviors to hide, deflect, deny all of those things. What your partner was doing, even if you knew a little bit here, a little bit there, there's a level of unawareness.

That you didn't know. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about invalidate how. Gaslighting plays in into the marriage, the relationship when there's been betrayal. Mm-hmm. Right away. I'm gonna just name off those methods. Okay. Go for it. So figure, pop quiz.

Right? Plot quiz. Davo. Okay. Mm-hmm. So Davos method one, then challenging your reality. Mm-hmm. And I think you used used the word validity challenge. I do. Yep. Very good. The reality and validity for that. And then a bunch of Cs. Chaos, confusion. Yes. And. Conflict. Yes. A plus. Okay. Nice. So well done.

Those are the different methods. Okay. Now I'm gonna turn over to the expert. Okay. Yeah, so when we're talking about methods, we're we're talking about what we would see if we were to take, a step back and take in the big picture. And it, it's interesting because you could look at I'm thinking about how my partner and I, we did a drive from Texas to Wisconsin this last summer, and we got to stop at, a number of amazing museums.

In fact, we took a day trip to the Art Institute of Chicago and we got to go to my favorite I guess, timeframe of art, which is like the Renaissance, right? Like we're talking Renoir and, van Gogh and like all of these beautiful impressionistic. Art pieces, I just, I could get lost.

So, the idea is you might take 10 different Renoirs or 10 different Monets and they're gonna have the same kind of style, but they're not gonna be exactly the same. And I think that's important to understand about these methods, these big pictures. Is what we're looking for is the feel, like we look for, that's impressionistic painting.

I can tell because the type of look that it has, the type of feel that it has is very different than modern, right? So these different methods have different big feelings to him, if you will, and. As it pertains to validating people's experiences I make up that it's not which one did you experience, but which ones and in which different situations.

Especially because one of the things I had this question recently where somebody asked, when a victim, if you will, starts to see some of the gaslighting, and they're not, that rope isn't being able to, they're not being able to get tangled by that rope so much anymore. Does the gaslight typically step up what they're doing?

And I'm like, unless they're in good recovery and healing, working on themselves, I'm gonna say like 9.5 times outta 10, but it's not gonna be the same. It's gonna be different, right? Right. Because it's no longer working. What used to work didn't work and their level of awareness is going to vary, right.

Like , how conscious they are of trying something new. That that's all debatable, that's not as important. It is important, but it's not as important as recognizing that it's happening. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? For example, maybe they initially used love bombing and diversion, right? To, to gaslight you to not ask about therapy or to not ask about this boundary, et cetera, et cetera.

And when that's no longer working, they might switch and start playing the victim. And when they play the victim, that's gonna cause you to feel conflict, right? Because do I choose myself and my needs or do I show empathy to my person or compassion to my person? And so that, that goes into that method three of the conflict, confusion and chaos.

Like which, what do I do here? I'm so conflicted because these are two very high values of mine. And side note, we don't have to be conflicted. It's just they're putting in a, in a situation where there there is conflict where there doesn't need to be if they were just honoring our boundary, for example.

Right. So does that kind of speak to what you were hoping to for validation or yeah. , I think it's great. And where my brain now goes I love the analogy you used because what I often see with my divorce lady, so post-separation what I often see is the post-separation abuse and those tactics and techniques amp up.

And the more control the abuser feels like they're losing mm-hmm. The more they will try to control. So I'll tell my clients, yeah, this is where boundaries are going to take a long time, because you will create, you'll shut one door mm-hmm. And they'll go through the side door, and then you shut the side door and they go through their side door, and then you shut that door and they go through the back door mm-hmm.

And you shut the back door and they go through the window. Like you are constantly trying to, it's a whack-a-mole. Oh my gosh. And it can feel so exhausting and so frustrating, but I didn't know this and, I literally thought I was gonna lose my freaking mind. Mm-hmm. Going through this. And so I think the experience, not only in the relationship, but then the experience of gaslighting and abuse, once you separate, once they know you're done mm-hmm.

It gets worse in most cases. Mm-hmm. For a number of reasons, right? Whether it's because they're trying to do image management right? And trying to make you look like the bad guy, whether it's because they're more on the, personality disorder side of things and have, maybe true narcissistic personality disorder or very, very, very high narcissism.

And so they're trying to keep you as part of their supply. The reasons can vary. But mo all, I mean, almost every time, honestly, not every time, but like, almost, almost every time. Yes. 0.9% of the time, right? , The odds of that not happening are so rare , in my work. So I usually just say, let's prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Yep. Yep. But when you're more aware, , and this is why I love your work and how you're always like, be the gaslighting expert because the more you're aware of what has been happening, then you really can create more safety for you. It doesn't mean that they'll stop necessarily. In fact, unfortunately most of the time then they start attacking the children.

Mm-hmm. There's children involved. Yeah. And that's a whole other topic 'cause that's painful as hell. But yes it is. But you you get to create a little bit more distance. And I'll speak for myself, the more of an expert I became in a lot of this stuff. I can look at what is happening on the other side of the street, those bombs that are getting thrown over.

Mm-hmm. And it's just like comical. It's like, ha ha ha. Okay. Nice try. Mm-hmm. 'cause I am, I have removed myself from that so far. Yes. I, 'cause I can see it now coming a mile away. Yes. Where early on it was still catching me off guard. Right. I blew up in my face. Right. You know something, it is funny that you say that 'cause I don't think I had really put this together for myself, but a couple years ago, like when, when Dr.

Romney first started becoming big I did a continuing education thing by listening to one of her. Doing one of her courses or whatever. Not on her full on course, but one of her smaller like classes. And anyways, the point of it was she was talking about betrayal trauma, and she was talking about, not specifically gaslighting, the kind of whole Venn diagram if you will, like narcissism, gaslighting and betrayal trauma and all the things.

And she was talking about, yes, we have to deal with the trauma, but what we really need to be aware of as wellness professionals is that a big part of people healing is the psychoeducation. Mm-hmm. And that's when I doubled down on my work and was like, okay, well, she's like the expert.

Like, I wanna grow up and be her someday, like, a thing. Right. And if I just, I felt so validated by that because that's what I had believed for so long, because that's what I had seen in my own life. I've had so many clients tell me that psychoeducation piece was the missing piece for them to get the clarity that they needed and then, feel more empowered that psycho.

And I feel like for our circling back around to this validation piece, I feel like that can be really, really validating for our clients. Because if all we're missing is some psychoeducation, then we're not broken. It's not our fault. It's not like all of these things. I just didn't know all, I was just missing information and I can get that information, which again, I can't stop the bombs in your analogy.

Can't stop the bombs from being thrown. But if I have that information, I can know whether or not a bomb is likely to come what time they usually come and, all of those types of things. And I can at least protect myself instead of getting hit and shook by them every dang time. Exactly, exactly.

Is it ideal? No. Is it a heck of a lot better? Yes. Can we move into post-traumatic growth if we stop getting hit all the dang time? Yes. And that's the difference. Yes. So it is important, right? Like we, we, we treat these things not as a, as a exercise in shame of where did I mess up? But a exercise of empowerment of where can I inform myself more?

Yes, exactly. Even when it to when we turn inward, or especially when we turn inward. Mm-hmm. Like where can, what, how did I, I'm thinking of your rope analogy, and to me it was I'm thinking of, I watch too many, like, spy movies and all the different things. , I'm thinking of like a rope that's not benign.

It's not just laying there. It's like a rope that, that is like attached to something. And if you step on it, that's what activates it and then it gets coiled around your neck, right? So it's like we're stepping on these ropes and then they get coiled around us and , we don't really understand why we stepped on it.

Like, we didn't even know that we had to be aware of stepping on ropes. Well, now that we're aware that, well, we shouldn't step on ropes, but we don't know why we do. So that's a level, right? So now we gotta figure out, well, why am I stepping on these ropes? And I didn't even know it, because that's how  📍 we avoid the ropes moving forward.

Yes, exactly.

Alright everyone, here's where I'm gonna pause. First, I wanna invite you to take a breath. Take a breath with me.

Place your feet on the floor if they aren't already. Look around your space that you're in right now, even if you're driving, and name five things that you see. Five colors. Notice the sounds, notice the smells,

notice one place in your body that feels neutral right now. If you can place your hand on your heart. And let yourself know that you're safe in this moment. Sometimes these conversations can be activating. They can bring up a lot, which is why I am splitting this episode that Sarah and I recorded into two parts.

So we're gonna get into self gaslighting next week, but right now just want to validate what we've been talking about. We've named the ropes some of these gaslighting behaviors that you experience in the relationship Noticing how easy it is for us to step on them or to pick them up or to recognize they're wrapped around our neck and we don't even realize it.

Your awareness today, be mindful to not let it take you to shame the, I should have known or I stayed way too long in that entanglement.

If your body is buzzing, that is okay. Remember, you're not behind in any of this work. It takes time to learn how to stop picking up those ropes. So between now and next week, I wanna encourage you to stay curious, stay kind with yourself. No fixing, no forcing. Just notice we will pick up right at self gaslighting next time. And . I'm gonna offer you a couple journal prompts

to help increase the self-awareness between now and next week.

You can do all of these. I'll put them in the show notes as well, or just ones that resonate with you.

You can give short answers or long answers, whatever you want. however you want to use this to work with you. one journal prompt to consider is when did I notice a rope this week? What was happening? Where did I feel it in my body that need to pick it up? Or when I realized I had picked it up and what did I then do next?

That's number one. The next journal prompt to consider is what rope do I most often pick up?

Maybe management minimization. staying in victim, chaos, conflict, confusion, Reality challenges. So maybe we're continuing to seek answers from your ex or Davo.

Which one are we picking up most often? And one more to consider.

When I picked up the rope, what was I trying to protect? My kids, my image, my safety, my peace, my money, my nervous system. Name it with compassion. Those again, those three questions will be in the show notes

Next week. We will talk about self gas lighting. We will name it clearly. We're gonna spot the should traps I think next week is gonna really help you identify where you might be self gas sighting

and how you can step out of those patterns as well. And when you do, you really are creating more freedom and more choice in your life.  📍 Because as always, you are the chooser in your life and you get to create the life that you want because you can take care everybody.