166. Self Gaslighting: Recognizing and Reclaiming Self with Sarah Morales Part 2

Hello. Hello, my amazing, beautiful listeners. Welcome back to part two. This week my conversation with Sarah Morales. We are continuing the conversation on self gaslighting. We are diving into. What that actually is and what that looks like. I am excited. I know that sounds so weird to say. I'm excited, but what I'm excited for is for you to really hear what this looks like to take this in, because this is where so many of us can get stuck.

and naming it is how we get free. if you took me up on last week's. Invitation to do the journal prompts. What did you notice? Did you see any of those ropes that you tend to pick up and grab and get entangled in? Maybe your bar slipped lower to keep the peas.

Are you a little bit more aware of how gas lighting maybe is still showing up around you? Maybe not even just with your ex, maybe just in other people around you? Are you becoming more aware? Of what this might look like as we move into self gas lighting, keep compassion right next to your awareness.

And self-compassion to be with you throughout this episode. It might be difficult for some of you, so if anything feels like too much, press pause, take a deep breath and come  📍 back when your body says yes.

Alright, let me drop right back into where we left off. In the conversation with Sarah.

 Now where I wanna go next with this is, and why I originally wanted to do a podcast episode around self gaslighting is mm-hmm. You've experienced it in the relationship. We talked about a couple of , these methods that that a lot of you experienced.

what I continue to see. And the clients that I work with, and they don't realize what they're doing, but they're now self gaslighting. So here you are out of the relationship. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're no longer needing to interact near as much. There are beautiful legalities put in place, I, a lot of my clients are not even like they're breaking the, their own legal boundary.

Mm-hmm. Again, thinking that, for example, here's one that comes up a lot. We have the legal boundary that you pay a lot of money for and of a parenting plan. And , the other parent is constantly wanting to shift that. Mm-hmm. More time, not whatever. then there's this inner conflict that my client will have of.

Maybe I need to respond or maybe I need to accommodate, or maybe I'm, 'cause maybe I'm being too much, maybe I'm expecting too much. Mm-hmm. And maybe I'm being too this because he tells me that I am mm-hmm. Yes. There's still some gaslighting manipulation happening on the other part, but they're doing it to themselves.

Mm-hmm. And they're self betraying. They're breaking their own boundaries or breaking the legal boundary. Mm-hmm. They're self gaslighting, feeling horrible about themselves because in addition to the other, the ex making them feel horrible because they're sticking into the parenting plan. And I just, I'm like, oh my gosh, I just wanna speak to all these ways.

Yeah. That I see women continue this gaslighting behavior against themselves, and it is keeping them stuck. It is keeping them f feeling free. And so I'll hear a lot of people say, oh my gosh, here I am divorced, but I'm not, I don't feel free. Yeah. I don't feel like I've moved on. I feel like, I feel like it's worse.

And I'm like, yeah. Yeah, so I think it's important. Something that I would love to take a moment to do is just explain the difference between three different experiences. Someone might have an one of those types of situations. Your listeners can self-identify when they might fall into these different experiences, right?

So if you take the gas cider who is doing gaslighting behaviors and someone might have three different responses, right? So the first. Where, where do I wanna start? I'm gonna start with the first one being they don't necessarily like the gaslighting, the victim doesn't necessarily experience gaslighting, but, or self gaslighting.

But they give in, if you will, or make that concession because they have to, because they know with full awareness, if I don't give in to this person, the retribution that I will experience is worse. Or my kids. Or my kids. Well, yeah. But what I experienced because of what might happen to my kids is worse than me giving in.

I don't wanna give in, I don't think it's right that I give in. If I was safe enough to hold my boundary, I would. Yeah. But I can't. Right. So that's, that's experience one. Okay. Experience two is you give in and then afterwards you're like, dang it. I gave in that is not in alignment my, with my authentic self.

I know that, this is typically the result of manipulation by the way. People get manipulation and gaslighting really confused. And so that's why I wanna differentiate here. So the person that experiences only manipulation and not full on gaslighting they're going to feel regret.

They're going to have an awareness that what they did is out of alignment with their authentic selves, with other values, et cetera, et cetera. They're going to want to do better next time. Whether or not they do, they're going to want to, right? They're gonna have that awareness that, that was not my authentic self.

I got manipulated into doing that or thinking that for the moment or whatever, right? So when we experience gaslighting, and this is where we wanna, obviously focus in here is where and, and, and I think it's important also to understand that gaslighting almost never happens as a one off.

It's usually when you've experienced that manipulation a hundred times, it evolves into gaslighting, right? So anyways what happens with gaslighting is I don't just feel regret. I actually start to take on blame. Like I'll blame myself, kinda like you're saying, like it's no longer, I help, I wanted that boundary I gave in because I was manipulated, but I know it's a valid boundary.

That would be regret, right? Gal sighting is I gave in on that boundary. Maybe I should have, maybe there was something wrong with the boundary in the first place. Maybe there's something wrong with me that I wanted that boundary, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And those are not, I think the important thing is that when we are able to strip away everything, and sometimes it's a really long process, we find that that's not our authentic self saying.

Saying those things, those are the things that have now become programming for us because we've heard them so many times that we now say them to ourselves. Yeah. Because a component of gaslighting, the external gaslighting that happens initially is brainwashing. Yes. Yes. Right. It is just hard. I don't care who you are.

If you hear something enough times from a person that you're supposed to be able to trust and love, it's going to chip away at your sense of self. It's going to, yeah. So it ends up becoming your own narrative. But if you slow down enough and you trace it back, you can identify, that didn't originate with me.

That originated with this, and it probably honestly originated in a couple of places, not just one. Correct. Yeah. I was gonna say, a lot of times, I mean, I'll speak for myself, like a lot of times as I've been over the years, deconstructing a lot of this for myself, it does trace back to childhood.

It does trace back to even a very strict religion. Like it's all part of that external messaging that I needed to believe for survival and attachment and Yep. Does become then your identity. And so again, it's why I love the word deconstructing, because as you piece it apart, you're like, oh yeah, no, that isn't actually what I believe or feel or think.

All right. So do you think I, was that pretty clear? Those like three different kind of e experiences or? Yes. Okay. No, so great. So now that we did that, I think it would be helpful to get on the same page of what self gaslighting is. So I thought if it, if now feels like a good time, I thought I could read a brief excerpt from my workbook.

That is basically how I explain self gaslighting. And I do name it as one of the vulnerabilities. Oops. I'm mm-hmm. Say that again because I was hitting my microphone. I do name it as one of our V vulnerabilities. So this is the paragraph. It says the next vulnerabilities sometimes gets pushed back when I bring it up.

But once you realize how real it is and how much it shapes your inner dialogue, it can feel incredibly liberating. This is the things you do to gaslight yourself. Self gaslighting. Simply put is when you try to convince yourself that you should think, feel, believe, or perceive something that is out of alignment with your authentic self.

Self gaslighting almost always starts with external gaslighting by someone paying, oops, sorry, by someone else that you then internalize. Not intentionally. It just happens, right? 'cause of repetition. You can often recognize when you're gal, setting yourself by paying attention to the words should or shouldn't.

, And maybe I, for example, I should be grateful that I even have a job because it's not always about relationship, right? If you're in a crappy job and your boss don't treat you well and you're disrespected well, at least I have a job. Maybe I should just be grateful in this economy or whatever, right?

Like there's a running joke in my family about in this economy, right? Like that is actually a self gas site. Maybe I should be grateful. Yeah. Yeah. That I have a shitty job where I'm treated crappy. Right. Like no kind of a thing. When, so maybe I should be grateful that I even have a job when your boss is playing favorites to the bros that are way less qualified than you are.

Or maybe I am a bit controlling when you get pushback from your intimate partner after you have tried to give a boundary request. Mm-hmm. This is another, oh, okay. Yeah. That's it. That's the end of the paragraph. In a nutshell, it's when you try to convince yourself, I'm gonna repeat that line again.

'cause I think it's so important. It's like the key of that paragraph. It's when you try to convince yourself that what to think, believe, feel, or perceive something that is out of alignment with your authentic self. Yeah. Right. Maybe I should think this way. Maybe I should feel this way. Maybe I shouldn't think.

Right. Right. And maybe I. The combination of those two things. And it, it often comes, like I said, in that paragraph, when it starts outside, like when somebody says, you're just like your mom. You're so controlling. And then that starts to, that self-doubt comes in and you're like, well, maybe I am a little bit controlling.

Maybe I didn't realize it because I grew up with a, my, my mom is controlling. Maybe I don't even realize when I'm being controlling self-doubt. Yeah, right. Instead of slowing down and checking in, which we weren't taught to do. I don't know about you, but I wasn't taught like somebody else is saying that I'm controlling.

What do I think? Do I think I'm controlling? And, well, I don't know if I trust my own judgment on that, because usually we don't. So how would I define controlling? Mm-hmm. Like, let's take it out , of that and just say like, if I were to define a controlling behavior versus a non-con controlling behavior, how would I define them?

What would be different about them? Like, let me get a little bit curious here. Instead of just allowing someone else to define me. You're really hitting on something I think is really key. And what came up in my therapy is that right there, listening to so many voices and having having so many voices.

Mm-hmm. In, in family, extended family, religion, origin, like all the things. Society. Yeah. Social media, like all of it. Yeah. And at one point today, my processing, it came, it literally came down to that of, oh, if I turn away from, I was doing like somatic body work and I'm like, my body away from, if I turn away from all of that, then what I experienced was the sheer panic.

Mm-hmm. Because then what? Because then I'm left to my own thoughts and opinions. Mm-hmm. And ideas. And if that wasn't encouraged, if it wasn't safe to do that, then it is going to. Feel what I felt and it's like scary as hell. Oh, it's super scary. I was telling a client the other day when I got to the part in my healing journey, my post-traumatic growth, if you will, where it was time to find myself again.

Mm-hmm. I, I was terrified. Yeah. I was terrified. I was like, there, there was this like little kind of program that I was doing where it was like, certain lessons about like getting rid of stuff and then certain lessons where you're supposed to be able to like hear yourself. And I was like, what if I get to the middle and I can't hear anything?

Yeah. Like, I have lived so long letting other people define me what I should do with my life, how I should live, what value should be important to me, who I should marry. Like all of it. Yeah. And I didn't know I had to let people do that, but by this point in my journey I did, I did know that I had to let people do that.

And now I was like, well, what do I lean on? Mm-hmm. Because I've went to I've leaned on all of these systems and people. My voice is a, do I even have one? Right. Right. I was terrified. Now rest assured we all do. Yes. I love that idea. I love that idea that she was just waiting, she was waiting for me.

Right. She was just waiting. She hadn't been silenced. Right. She'd gotten quiet. Right. But she was, which was the Right, and I'm air quoing thing. Yeah. To survive in that family system or in that dynamic or in that marriage. I love what you just said right there. I think it's really important. You didn't know, but now you do.

Yes. And once you do, once you know better, you do better. Exactly. Thank you. Maya Angelou. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And then you can shift out of that. So when, this goes back to what we were saying about psychoeducation. When you know how you might be self gaslighting. When you are now more keenly aware of the shoulds and the shouldn'ts and the supposed toss and the I, maybe I should and I have to.

Mm-hmm. That is your little, I just call, I like, imagine this little emoji guy just like pops up in my brain, this little flag and I go, oh, hey, hold on a second. Time out. Yeah. To slow that down and self correct. But it takes time. It does take time. And I don't know if I'm jumping the gun or not, but it's just where my brain went.

But I think the most commonplace and way that I see my clients beginning to recognize the self gaslighting that they have done revolves around their bar, right? Like the bar that they set for their relationships with other people. Most of my clients will say their bar is either really super low on the ground, and I've had some clients say, oh girl, I didn't, my bar wasn't just on the ground.

Like I dug a hole and my bar was like below ground. And then when we are trying, and the tricky part is because our bar had gotten so low, there's this discomfort mm-hmm. When we're trying to raise our bar, because we've lowered our bar because of the gaslighting, we've lowered our bar because we were told we expect too much or we're too emotional, or all, you know all of the things and it's never enough for you or whatever the different things are.

Right. If you were a better wife, if you were a better mother, all, all, all of it, right? Yes. Lower our bar. Lower our bar, lower our bar. Because in lowering the bar, we were able to stay in relationship with that person and we're wired to feel like we're going to die if. Don't stay with that person or those people or whatever.

So of course we choose to lower our bar. Right? Like automatic programming. But now we're at the place where we're like, oh no, my bar is in the ground. Right? Like I, I'm not okay with this anymore. Yeah. But now what do I do? Because every time I try to raise my bar, those voices bombard me. And it's a struggle to think that it's, I'm actually not asking for too much when I say I just want honesty or I'm not asking for too much when I don't wanna be yelled at or whatever that Right.

Like these things Yeah. That are really bare minimum. Well, and yes. And as you're talking, I'm like, oh my gosh. I, ugh. Yes. And what's unfortunate is that unless we are surrounding ourself with people who also get this Yes. And validate this, your brain is gonna continue to, it's gonna be reinforced, this messaging or these thoughts.

Yeah. Because I remember like, even some well-intended family members or clergy leaders it got reinforced when I stepped back into dating. Mm-hmm. So even being aware of that, it, it's, it's like this, the biggest fight really, it's to break free from this, because you might be aware of it. You might wanna raise the bar, you might have your list of, yeah, okay.

I'm never settling for anything but this, but yeah. It will continue to be reinforced that low, low bar mm-hmm. From people systems around you. Mm-hmm. If you are not also aware of, the gaslighting phrases in those other areas of your life too. Yeah, I think, it was in this season of my life that a couple of prompts and one particular mantra became really, really helpful for me and the prompt was if I were free to be me.

Right. That was one of the most clarifying ones because it, you take the self-assessment test and it like, which one would you, more likely do and, and like, man, some of us, I think you and I are in, were in this boat, were so programmed, like our automatic responses, like we, we thought we were responding out of our authentic self, but it was actually automatic responses that had been programmed into us.

Yeah. So I've, I discovered that my initial response wasn't always most my most authentic one. So slowing down and saying, okay, that's what I would do if I was trying to be the people pleasing Sarah, like who's trying to live up to everybody else's expectations of her. Okay. Noted. Now, if I were free to be me, right?

Like if I were free to be me and to, to think or feel or believe or perceive whatever I wanted to in that situation respond. However, I, what would feel I say this, I've been saying this a lot in a lot of podcasts lately at home. Home is what we're looking for when we're looking for authenticity. 'cause a lot of us don't even know how to find what is authentic.

What does that even mean? How do I even know when I'm connecting with my authentic self? It feels like home. Well, what does that feel like? We keep asking those curious questions. To me, to me, the best description I have found is a simultaneous experience of peace and joy. Peace and joy. They're both very deep feelings.

They're not sur surfacey feelings. It's a feeling of at ease. It's, it's, there's so many times I've tried to force myself into other things and there's always some part of me. Usually you can identify somatically, right? That doesn't feel right. Right. So we're, we're looking for trying to find our authentic self and all that.

And I think I just lost my train of thought 'cause I got off topic, but I'm trying to think where I started from. I know. 'cause I'm following real close behind you. Yeah, I know you are. Man, I had an initial point that got me off on this I think, but I can't remember what was, so I guess we'll just have to go with that.

I know we were talking about the bar and Oh, I know how so many external factors reinforce the gas lighting message. Yes. And then I said the things that helped me. Okay. We got there. Yes. So the free to be me. Right. So , that was really clarifying for me because I got to, I got to step outside of, it doesn't matter.

Like, I don't necessarily have to take any action on it. I'm just trying to figure out what would I think, what would I feel, what would I want in this situation if I were free to be me completely free to be me looking for peace and joy. That sense of ease. And then the other thing, this is one of my mantras, and it might be the title of my book, which I started by, I only have four pages written.

Only four pages more than mine. Y'all, y'all are like the first like public thing of anybody hearing my p my potential title. , It's, it's my life mantra. It's, I define me. I love it. Nobody else that that's what this part of this self gaslighting mm-hmm. That, that's like the anti-hero or whatever you would call, right?

Like that's the, the protagonist of the story, if you will, is that, that getting to that place of learning that nobody else gets to define me. So when we hear those things of too much or should or shouldn't or maybe I, right, like slowing down and saying, okay, that's a red flag to self gaslighting, what would I do and think and feel if I were free to be me knowing that nobody else gets to define me.

Nobody else gets to tell me what to think, feel, believe, perceive, want. Here. Mm-hmm. And so I, I love the combination of those two things to get curious about whether or not you're gaslighting yourself. A really helpful distinction I give to people when they're trying to get curious around gaslighting is I use my love of donuts to explain, explain the word should and shouldn't.

When we're talking about self gaslighting, and this is no joke, I love donuts. I absolutely love, love, love, especially the old Fashioneds are my favorites. So I try not to use the word should and shouldn't, but we all do, right? Mm-hmm. But I try, I try not to when it's genuinely not a should or shouldn't.

But for the case, for the purpose of this analogy, we're gonna say, I don't know about you Amy, but I love going into my local H-E-B-H-E-B is a grocery store chain. I will miss when I leave Texas 'cause it's the best. It's the best. I love my ETBs. You, you will miss it. You will miss it. I know, I know I will.

Yeah. So I walk in, bam, right there. First thing is you're trying to walk over and get to the vegetables and all the healthy stuff is the case of donuts. Like you see them every, there's no way to not see the donuts. Hmm. Like you can bypass all kinds of other stuff in the grocery store. You cannot bypass the donuts.

So I see them and I'm telling you every single time I want a donut. Every single time. Now, like many Americans, I'm pre-diabetic. Right? Like many Americans. 'cause we eat like crap. My dad also had type two diabetes, so I also have some genetics in there. Right. I want to be healthy. So one of my values is health and to eat.

Eat like not a lot of carbs and not a lot of sugar, which is really hard. Mm-hmm. Right. So I see those donuts. I have two options of what I could say. If I'm going to say should. Or shouldn't. I could say I shouldn't want those donuts, or I could say, I shouldn't buy a donut. One is self gaslighting, one is not.

Can you tell the difference? Shouldn't want. Why? Because it's, it's discounting and negating a want something that is a desire, which is not bad. That's right. That's exactly. Gold star again, a plus plus. Right. But that, that's how we recognize when we're trying to tell ourselves, I shouldn't want my person to treat me better.

I should be okay with their half-ass attempt at recovery. Or, or, or Right. Like we're trying to convince ourselves to think, feel, believe, perceived differently than our authentic self does. The second one, again, I would prefer to say, I, I am not going to buy that donut would be a better representation of what we're trying to say.

But again, I'm trying to help people understand when I am using that word, how do I tell the difference? Mm-hmm. Because in the second case, I'm trying to heard my love of donuts in the direction that is in alignment with my values. Right. Or my needs. Right, right, right. So in that case, that's not self gaslighting.

In that case, it's telling myself, okay, you, you love your donuts. That's not bad. And we're not gonna buy donuts today. Every once in a while I'll let myself buy a donut. We're not gonna do it today. We're not gonna do it nine times outta 10 because I value my health. Yeah. Great example. Thank you. Really, really great example.

Very true too. That's why I can be so passionate about it. 'cause I really do love those donuts. So those are just a, a couple of things I think for, for people. 'cause I can, I think it can be really confusing when people start talking about self gaslighting. Mm-hmm. And especially for people who have experienced gaslighting at a really high, with a real high end gaslight like you and I have.

Mm-hmm. To think that I would do that to myself. Like I, I throw my bullshit flag at that. Like there's no way. Like that's why I get some pushback. 'cause people are like, I would never abuse myself. Okay. But we do all the time, we do the right that aside we don't have to be intentionally trying to harm ourselves in order to gaslight ourselves.

Right. It's simply trying to convince ourselves to do believe, think, or feel something that is out of alignment with our authentic self. Yeah. And again, that can be hard because we might not be super connected to our authentic self. So that's why it's the process that it is. I really hope everyone can hear that right there.

It really has to start with your alignment with self. Absolutely. Why your post-traumatic growth work has to continue. Yeah. And I wanna validate like how frustrating and annoying that is. Yep. To feel like, really this isn't gonna end it. The post-traumatic growth work. I'll again, speak for myself and I don't know if you feel the same way, but it really has truly blessed my life and my children's life.

It really is for me. I had a therapist years ago, not the one I've been with for the last 10 years, but like the one prior to that she said something that I'll never forget. She was like, look, everything you do from here on out is just for you. Mm. That's great. Even though I'm processing stuff from the, maybe the marriage at the, at the time, she was like, but it's for you.

Right. And I loved that. Reframe . It really helped. Again, let go of another rope. And just that mindset of like, oh my gosh, I'm so done with. Mm-hmm. Done. So the idea of going to therapy or doing coaching to talk about that, it was just annoying 'cause I didn't wanna have anything to do with him anymore.

Mm-hmm. So just that little reframe for y'all, like this work, this self-reflecting, slowing it down, doing this is for you. Yeah. And for your children, because yeah, they're listening to how you talk to you. Yeah. They're listening to how you talk to yourself. Do you have any more examples of like, I wanna give them a little, couple more examples that maybe they can relate to that, that they might not recognize as self gaslighting.

Is anything coming to mind? I mean, the basic ones of like, I heard you're overreacting and so I will tell myself that, like, oh, maybe I'm overreacting. Just little things like that. Yeah. I mean, I think so many of them are like have one therapist that I, I've contracted with that she talks about.

We're, we're each given a ruler and the problem is we start measuring ourselves by other people's rulers instead of our own ruler. And so any time we start telling ourselves I should be more like this person, right? Like, or I'm a bad mom, or I'm right. Like, and, and the reason isn't because we actually think we're a bad mom.

It's because we, these messages, right? Like I'm thinking, , the greatness and the evil of Pinterest because I'm thinking of like the Pinterest posts of like lunchboxes that moms send their kids to school with, and like my kids having pizza for the fifth night in a row because I can barely get outta bed.

I'm a bad mom. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, my kids are going to, resent me or they're gonna be messed up for life, or lots of these things where again, you're, you're, you're defining who you are based on other people's definitions, not your own, how do you, can I just say including your kids? Yes. When you just said kids, , it made me realize too, a couple client stories, like their kids will come back from the other parent's house.

Yeah. And well, dad does this, or the other parent does this. Yep. And again, another ruler. I love that analogy. Another measuring. Mm-hmm. Stick that we're now comparing and stepping out of what we really want need in that moment, for that time. Yes. And because it's normal, natural human to want to be loved.

Mm-hmm. Right. To want to be seen as a good parent. When you're confronted with something like that, the knee jerk reaction is to be like, well, crap, I don't wanna be doing things wrong. I don't want, , or whatever. Right. Instead of, again, slowing down and saying, okay, well that parent does it that way.

That's not how we do it here. We have different values, we have different ideas on parenting and you might like it more. That's okay. You get to like it more. Mm-hmm. I'm just gonna do it this way here. And you might think I'm a bad mom right now, or You might not like me right now, or whatever.

That's uncomfortable. Yes. It goes against our wiring. Yes. 'cause we are programmed to believe that we need to be loved by everybody all the time. Right. And if we're not loved by everybody all the time, then something's wrong and we better change. We better change. Betrayal Trauma reinforces this message.

So if you Absolutely. And it before you didn't have it before, this is gonna reinforce it so much more. So like Absolutely. I had that before. Betrayal trauma just made it that much worse. Yeah, it was really, really challenging. Yeah, and I think something that should be said too, I just said should could be said too, I think that can be really important is the way that we can unintentionally even internalize and g outside ourselves, if we're not careful from beautiful experiences too.

Like I'm thinking about a group like sharing in a group and one person is in one place and post-traumatic growth and another person is in another place. What's wrong with me? Why am I not in that place? I should be in that place. That's another way of self gaslighting, right? Like, again, anything. How many times have we seen this in our group?

Right. Like any, again, anytime that takes us out of our authentic self, what would your authentic self say to you in that moment? It's okay, darling. You are exactly where you're supposed to be. You are working your ever loving ass off. And that it's perfectly okay for you to be where That's what our authentic self would say.

Yeah. Right. Not this inauthentic self. That's another example. Or, I mean, we can do it in so many places. I can have, I've struggled throughout the past few years because the way my business has gone is being like, I'm just not as good of a, the, this is that person. 'cause it'll, how successful they are or whatever.

Because I'm me measuring success by this standard or by that standard instead of slowing down and saying, okay, but how do I measure success? Mm-hmm. Right? Like, if I didn't care about this metric that is set out by the world, how successful do I think I am now? Does that pay the bills? Maybe, maybe not. So that's valid, but let's take out the word success.

Yeah, because then I'm, I am like gaslighting myself that I'm not successful when I actually am. I'm actually quite successful. But I can actually question that if I start to use the metrics and the definitions of other people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How do I define that and play that through? And once you do, because I know you've done this work.

Mm-hmm. Once you do that and you strip away all of the rules, the messages mm-hmm. The rules this, then you really do find your core that we've been talking about, and then options open. They do. And when you, when I'm thinking about back to why, while die on this hill, so to speak, right.

About the, this, to me, this is the last level. Freedom when it comes to the work that we do around gaslighting. Like typically it's, I'm gonna, it's my intimate partner and learning all that and getting safe in that. But like, true freedom and liberation comes with this work. And so going back to that kind of analogy of the, , with the, even if your person is still throwing bombs, right?

When you know that you know how to keep yourself safe, and that's what being free and liberated is, you're like, okay, like it doesn't even really scare me anymore. It's a nuisance. Mm-hmm. It's a nuisance, right? Because every once in a while the bomb's so big, it causes a base to fall off the shelf. That's a nuisance.

But I know I'm safe. Nothing they do right? And that's not to say that our gas ci don't ever do something that don't make us safe. That's not what I'm trying to say. , I'm trying to say there's a difference, like when we become, when we get to that level, when we know ourself. So intimately. 'cause that's really what it's about.

Then , we're not so shaken. Right. Like, even if somebody says something that throws us for a loop, like we know how to get back to ourself. Yeah. And so the work, like, it's the most rewarding work, I mean, the freedom that comes when you're, when you realize, oh, I was just gaslighting myself.

Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna do that. Like, what's my authentic self saying? Mm-hmm. Like, how am I gonna step into owning that and being free and liberated here? Mm-hmm. By being in alignment with my most authentic self. How can I nourish that? What things can I say to my authentic self to grow that connection and make it stronger?

How can I counter the things, the shoulds or the maybe is, what can I do? Like those are we, I mean, it's just, it's so powerful. So freeing. I say at the end of every, I don't know if you know this, I say at the end of every podcast, you're the chooser in your life. Mm. So you can create the life that you want because you can, like, you just can.

And when you really become the chooser, which means freeing yourself up, stepping into your agent power mode, then you get to create, you could create, because there are more options than we ever could see when we are, living in the roles and the rules and the shoulds and shouldn't, and all the things that , when you get rid of all of that, there are other things available that you might not have seen before., I will use the analogy of like, I felt like I lived in a world of blue and there was just, it was blue. Wow. Mm-hmm. Blue. And then I just, it is what it is. And then all of a sudden you start getting rid of all this and getting rid of this, and then getting rid of that role and getting rid of that.

And it's like. Oh my gosh. Purple. Oh my gosh, there's purple. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. There's pink. And it's the most incredible thing. Now I can create a painting. Now I can really create, 'cause I have more colors. Yes. But we have confined ourself and been confined to just live in one color. Yeah. Yeah. Can I say one more thing?

I know we've been talking for a while, but can I say one more thing? I think is important? Yeah. When we're, when we're trying to break free, if you will, I think one of the stumbling blocks that there can be for people is understanding the difference between compromise and concession. Ooh, thank you.

Please talk. Yes. Yes. Okay. I like to use, a story to, to vi help people visualize the difference. Now I know it's simplistic and it's not always this simple, but it's the principle. And if a principle is true, we can figure out how to apply it in even more complex situations, right? Yeah. So let's just pretend I ha I didn't have a super busy day today, but let's just pretend I did.

Let's pretend it's one of my days when I have like three hour intensives and then group, and then all of the things and, oh, it was also supposed to be my night to make dinner, right? And at the end of the day, I was being really super optimistic when I made the plan for the week and I thought I'd be able to cook dinner at the end of the day.

I'm like, I do not wanna cook dinner. I'm tired, I don't wanna prep, I don't wanna clean up. Let's just go out for dinner. Okay? My value in that moment is self-care. Right now my partner values money, not in like a bad way, but like being budget conscious, all that kind of stuff. Well, if we go out, we already have this food, we might end up having to throw it out, right?

That's wasting money, right? If we, and if we go out, we're gonna spend a lot more than we would if we eat at home, right? So we have a conflict and values there. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now a beautiful when, when you're in a relationship where there's compromises, one of two things is gonna happen. One example, it's actually my favorite example is when my partner could say, well, why don't I cook?

You get your value of self-care. I get my value of saving money. Both of our values are being respected and honored and listened to. They might just be happening a little bit differently than we had pictured them happening. That's where we are compromising on how those values. Are being met. Mm-hmm. Right.

That's where the compromise comes from. It's mutual, it's collaborative, it's yes, yes. Okay. That's one way. The other way compromise can happen is you take turns. Okay, so maybe my partner also doesn't wanna cook, so then we'll, okay, well this time we're gonna go out. Maybe next time when I wanna go out and you wanna stay home, we'll stay home.

We'll take turns because again, you're looking for that mutuality. Okay? Concession making is one of two things, right? Concession making is when it's never mutual. It's always you giving in and the other person's, quote unquote, value or need or want is getting met and yours isn't. The other is, I'm going to say you're actually, this is when we, this is how we know when we're stepping into self abandonment, which is connected to concession making, right?

Like when, when our values and needs are not being met or even more clearly is when we are going against one of our values. You have to surrender a value in order to correct. We have to abandon ourself mm-hmm. In order to agree with the other person. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. And that's again, we're talking about something that would be an actual value or need.

Right? Yeah. Like it's a different different than a preference. Right. And I see this when we wanna avoid conflict or Yes. And again, that's where we circle back around to those three different things that we could do in that moment.

Right. We might have to concede in order to keep the peace that's a legitimate, necessary decision for some people. Mm-hmm. I make up quite a few of the people that you work with. Mm-hmm. At least some of the time. Right. This is not what I ha want to do. It's against my values to give more time with my kids to this person that I don't trust.

, I have a client who's doing this right now, but if I do that, then they're not gonna drag me to court or whatever. Right. Or they might do it and then they're like, oh crap. Like I just abandoned my va my value and I, I regret it and next time I'm gonna try to do better to, or we make a concession and we convince ourself that it was the right thing to do and I should actually change what I think and feel in that situation to align myself with the person who is asking me to make concessions.

Right? Yeah. And part of that, part of the reason we do that, it's all linked. I'm thinking in my progression of effect scale, right? And I'm thinking like most of us who are in listening to this podcast will be, have been so far up the progression of effects scale that we're weary of the fight for ourselves.

We're just weary because we know, we get so much pushback when we try to fight for ourselves that subconsciously we're like, we can only live in that conflict. That really high conflict of that causes cognitive dissonance where I can't choose, we can before we have to choose. And because it's easier.

'cause it is easier to self abandon for a while. Yeah. Until it's not right. So we end up making that concession and aligning ourself with the gas lighter, un, unintentionally. 'Cause nobody wants to do that. So we unintentionally do that because it's a reprieve from the battle, the internal battle, the, it, it, it, it, it's a reprieve from the weariness and the exhaustion that many people feel when they've gotten to this level because of the constant barrage of gaslighting that will happen until we do concede.

Yep. Yeah. This is where I would stay small. It's where I would become very resentful. Mm. Yeah. I mean, this is where I took on the things that my ex was saying about me. Yeah. you actually start behaving in the ways that aren't authentic to you. Yeah. I started becoming more of an angry person because he told me I was an angry person.

Right. Had to find alignment somewhere. Yeah. I think I've shared this story before in one of the episodes, but I remember it's one of the clear moments for me, my ahas of I'D left, I was already living in an apartment with my four kids and something happened and I didn't get angry. And it was that moment of you should be angry about that.

Mm-hmm. I'm not, wait a second. Mm-hmm. And I remember in that moment going. I'm not an angry person. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. Yep. Lots of those aha moments. Yeah. Unfortunately, fortunately and unfortunately, right. We come back to ourselves. You do. And those are the moments that help you come back to yourself.

It's that there's grief mixed with that. Like, oh no, I thought I was saying reversing no. And oh, how sad for that past self, but oh, yay, I'm really not. I can move forward and really, I'm, that's not who I am. And that was a moment of redefining just so important in this whole process. Mm-hmm. So important. Oh my gosh.

Okay. I know you and I literally talk forever. Is there anything else that you feel like, this unique group of listeners who mm-hmm. Divorce I, call I, I say a lifesaving divorce, um mm-hmm. Different than other divorces. A lot to unpack a lot of pieces mm-hmm. To healing when you've had this kind of a divorce, but mm-hmm. Besides going and getting your workbook and becoming a guest lighting expert mm-hmm.

What are some other things that can do that are just tangible? Just, yeah. The thing that I referenced earlier was Heather Pletz the Spiral path. It's a, I wanna say. I don't even know how many weeks, 20 something weeks or we did it in weeks. It's like a daily email. I don't know how she's doing it now, but that, that was the, the thing where it was like going into myself and finding myself.

She's got beautiful exercises, all different kinds of things. That's something I, I think would be really great. Obviously, your stuff, which your clients don't need to necessarily know about 'cause they already know about, but like, all you're dating within, I actually told, told somebody about that the other day.

I was like, you need to, you need to do, like one of my colleagues says, and you need to date yourself. That doesn't mean take yourself out to a movie. It means, when you're first getting to know somebody, whether it's a friend or romantic, and you just like, I wanna know everything about them. And so I ask all the questions like, do that with yourself.

Yeah. Ask yourself. That's how you get to know yourself. Mm-hmm. You said ask yourself all the questions. Treat yourself like you literally down to like, when you go eat, are you really eating what you want to eat? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember doing this and putting cranberries on my salad and going, wait a second, why am I doing this?

Yeah, I actually really don't like this, but this was something that was just like, you, you just put cranberries on a salad. Yeah. Just did it. So just those, you can break it down that small if what we're saying is too big. Just Yeah. Do I relate this? I think one of the outside of like books or, that kind of things, I think a tangible or practical thing I think that people could do as it pertains to this kind of like self gaslighting and trying to get to know yourself thing is being very aware of your mindset.

Especially when you're trying to step into any kind of learning or, or activities or mantra creating or working on your self-talk or whatever it is. Be mindful of your energy and your mindset. From the start. And that is one of and, and this is because I'm a science nerd, but I would say tr to like give yourself permission to treat yourself as an experiment.

And what I mean by that is getting out of the place of I have to figure this out and I have to be right about myself right now. And instead treating yourself the way you would, treat shopping for a pair of jeans. Like, you're gonna take 10 pairs of jeans into the fitting room. Mm-hmm. And you're not gonna, you're not gonna take the first one that you try on.

What if it's tight in the butt and perfect in the waist? Like, you wouldn't do that. You'd be walking around all like tight, wouldn't rate. Of Yes. I love that. Right? So it's like we're gonna keep, but it's, we're gonna keep trying pants on until we find the pair that fits right in all the places. Yes, you would, right?

So allow yourself, as you're trying to figure out yourself, yourself, like maybe you are gonna try to figure out what kind of genre movies you like the best. And every one of your friends is raving about Twilight, and you go and you watch it and you're like, yeah, I liked it, but there's this, this, and this.

I didn't like about it. Well, it doesn't mean it has to become your new favorite genre, right? Like, like keep, keep, try, keep trying it out until you find, oh, it's actually loaded the ranks. Like, that's my jam. Like I am no man, right? Like, I don't know the, anybody who's a loader fan will know that quote. Anyways, right?

Like we keep. And I know that's a silly example and I'm doing that on purpose, right? Like, but we do that from silly to serious. Yes. Right. Like we allow ourselves to say, I don't have to quote unquote get it. Right. Not only do I need to find myself, some of us, for the first time ever, also curve ball.

We're going to evolve. I was just gonna say it can, it's gonna change. So this is a lifelong practice. Yes. It's a lifelong practice of figuring out, okay, so two years ago at the, at the place I was in my post-traumatic growth, this is what I wanted, this is what I thought and believed. And oh, I've grown in those two years.

This is now I, I'm raising my bar even more. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Beautiful. But we continue, it's, again, it's the pants analogy because our weight is gonna fluctuate uhhuh if you get menopause every week. Exactly. Right. I should organize my jeans by week. Right. But, but in all seriousness, like that mindset, that permission giving mindset of, man, I found my power by checking in with myself.

Mm-hmm. And giving self, I'm thinking of this thing that my, I'm not gonna get it quite right, but my coach actually gave this to me years and years ago. But it's like I get to want what I want. I get to change what I want. I get to expand what I want. Mm. I love that something goes to that.

It's growth mindset. It's a growth mindset. And it's become my non-negotiable. Exact, exactly. And that, I mean, that's one of the things like if you want a safety net, that's gonna keep you from falling into gaslighting and self gaslighting. That's it. If you stay committed to knowing yourself and all the things slowing yourself down, which can be hard to do, especially in, in, both these days, in these chaotic, chaotic times.

It can be, it can be hard. There's always something coming at us so hard. But you can't afford not to. Can't afford not to because power comes from slowing down. Yep. Even, even if it's for just a few minutes. Truly. Yeah. Truly, truly. And then just for funsies, I'll put this out there. I don't think you'll care, and if you do, you can cut it.

But I do have a store. It's called Sassy Sarah's merch. Mm-hmm. And my favorite t-shirt is I have a T-shirt and I have a mug and I have a sticker. So you have different options if you wanna get some motivational stuff that help remind you of these things. But my favorite one is, it looks like a definition.

If you were to Google, what's the definition of a glass, right? It's gonna give you what it sounds like phonetically, and then it's gonna give you, if it's a noun or a verb or whatever, and it gives you the definition. So I have this t-shirt where it says me, and then it gives the phonetic spelling of me, and then underneath it says something you don't get to define.

I love it. So I I've seen that one. Yeah. So that's actually my favorite. I have a tank top like that. But you know, for me, I love, I don't know if you do video too, but I've got, like, I love stickers, so that's why I made sure I had stickers. But things like that, those little memories, like, I'm gonna wear my me shirt today.

I just, I need it, I need to remind myself that nobody gets to define me today. Even if I wear under something else and nobody else sees that I know that I'm wearing it or I'm gonna put this sticker on like the inside of my laptop so that every time I open it and I have to get on a Zoom call with my X or I have to go to, with the lawyer or whatever.

Like, I can see that, or I can see the, one of the other things I have on there is a is a little thing that it's like a character of a, of a little girl and the shadow is like Super girl. And the super girl has the logo of my logo in the middle. And then this actually comes from one of my groups where this woman said, I'm learning how to stand up on the inside.

Mm-hmm. So these little things, I know you've got some great ones too on your store. And I'm not just making a plug for my store. I make very little money off the stuff in my store, like very. No, , it's fun stuff. Negligible, right? But there are things like, I created it, they're, they all come from mm-hmm.

The mantras that have stu stood the test of time of over a decade of working with clients that have been the most, like, things that people come back to time and time and time again when they're in their places where they need that little extra boost. So that's a, that's a resource too. I love it. So grateful that you joined me in this conversation.

Way better than I would've ever done on. Oh, yay. Thank you. Good. Well, you're welcome. My pleasure very much. Alright, well I will wrap up with I know I said it earlier, but w everything Amen to what Sarah said. And as always, you all truly are the chooser in your life,  📍 and when you step into that, you get to create the life that you want because you can take care everybody.

  If you are interested in any of the  📍 resources or online stores that Sarah and I talked about, both of our website to those stores will be in the show notes and as a certified deconstructing gaslighting specialist through Sarah's program. If you are wanting to dive in more around gas lighting your experience, perhaps with it in your past relationships, other relationships.

I use her workbook to help support my clients to further their psychoeducation and work through this. So if you feel like you might be stuck here, then feel free to reach out and we can tackle this together. You don't have to do this alone. Alright everyone, I will see you soon.